One: Intro to President Snow

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MS. KOFFORD:  We would like to introduce  Steve and Carmen. They're great.  Steve Urquhart,  I have worked with him in the legislature the last  several years, great man. Carmen Snow is the former -- she just finished, as of July 1, being the Utah State PTA president.  She was a great PTA president. So let's welcome these two to the pulpit. We're grateful for this opportunity to learn about  the issues.  Thank you.         

PRESIDENT SNOW:  Here we are, Steve, at the pulpit.  Who goes first?  I go first.  Okay. Two and a half minute introduction of myself, what I am, who I am.  Well, I can probably tell you in a minute, maybe 60 seconds, which is a minute.  I'm Carmen Snow.  I was born and raised here in southern Utah.  I'm married.  I have three children.  I have seven grandchildren, six boys and one girl.  I have been in PTA for over -- my oldest is -- never mind, quite old.  So I have been in PTA for a long, long time.  If you don't know what that is, that's Parent Teacher Association.  But before PTA --   well, with PTA also, I have been very involved in  the community here in St. George.  I have been on  the -- I have served on the chamber board, I was  part of their board.  I was president of the Retail  Merchants Association.  I was a manager at a retail  business here.  I not only managed it for 11 years,  I also was a supervisor over six other stores; two in Las Vegas, the rest in Utah and two in Idaho.  So I have been very much involved in the business  field, as well as the community, things that are  going on.  I have been since -- 13 years ago I  retired myself from the retail business end of the  world, and I have been a volunteer.  Everything I  do has been on a volunteer basis, from serving up  north for the last two years being the state PTA  president.  It's not a paid position, it is all  volunteer.  I do not work for any special interest  groups. 

I am a mother and a grandmother and a  citizen of Washington County that cares about  children.  I have been, for the past two years, the  chairman for the Education Coalition of Utah.  And  the Education Coalition, Patty Harrington, your  superintendent, your state superintendent, is on  there, on that board.  Christine Kearl, who is the Deputy of Education for the governor, serves on that board.  Anyway, it's the full community of education committee.  And that's how come I have also been on the heel for the last nine years.  And I have worked side by side with Steve and Dave and Brad, and I have been very proud of what our representatives are doing up there, but -- and we  have -- thank goodness Steve and I know how to  agree and disagree.  We agree to disagree and agree  to agree.  And they just told me to stop.  And I want  to thank -- I want to thank Steve right now for  what he has done for the children of Utah.  And I  feel bad that we're not standing up here today  talking about trust lands, which we both agree on,  so okay. 

Two: Introduction  to Rep. Urquhart

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART:  Thank you for  being here.  We're blessed to live in a part of the  world where we get to publicly debate the course of  government and ultimately we get to shape -- we get  to decide in which direction that government goes,  and that's very exciting.  I'm Steve Urquhart, a member of the Utah House of Representatives.  I was first elected in 2000, and I currently have the privilege of serving as chair of the House of Rules Committee.  I'm married to Sara Stanley Urquhart, and we have four children who attend West Elementary, Tonaquint Sixth Grade Center and Dixie Middle School.  I'm extremely grateful for the teachers and administrators who work with those children. You do an excellent job, and I could not be more  pleased.  I realize that many of those wonderful  teachers and I disagree on the issue of vouchers.  You even feel attacked by it.  I deeply regret if  that's how the issue hits you. You and I agree on a lot, including the  fact that you deserve more resources, yes, money,  to do your job.  I hope you know that I fight  harder, and I like to think more successfully, than  anyone in the legislature to increase school  funding. I have since day one and I will until my  last day up there, no matter what happens on this  one small issue.  And I do believe it's a small  issue.  I believe it only has major importance to a  few families and children who struggle.  To the rest us, if Referendum 1 does pass, we'll look back in 10 years and ask, "What was the big deal?"  But to those families who need this assistance, they will look back and say, "That was a huge deal." 

The intent of vouchers is to improve education in Utah and to provide opportunity for some children who really need a little opportunity.  And though I clearly understand that this is one of the points of disagreement, the  intent also is to stretch our public education  dollars further, which I hope I adequately explain  tonight how this bill accomplishes that. I look forward to discussing the merits of this issue tonight, and I'm happy to share the stage with Carmen. I'm proud of her and proud of the PTA of which I'm happy to be a member. In sending out the notice for this meeting, I believe that our region PTA did so in a very neutral fashion. Thank you. That's very classy. Typically, when we can put our thumbs on the scale, we tend to do it. And we've seen that happen elsewhere, but I'd like to thank our local PTA with this wonderful opportunity. To preface this debate, I would like to lay out three points on which I hope we can agree. One, we need to seek out and do what is best for education in Utah; two, our decision should be driven by the facts, not fear or rumors; and three, we should air our disagreements in a civil manner. Let's get to the merits. Carmen, good luck.

PRESIDENT SNOW: Good luck to you, too.

Three: The voucher referendum history from the PTA perspective

PRESIDENT SNOW: I'm going to give you just a little bit of history really quick because I want to give you some other very important points. When we were up on the hill this year, PTA was told they would be better off if they were home doing some punch and cookies because they aren't very good politically. This was very disturbing to me as a state PTA president because I have watched my commissioners and how much time and thought they had done in everything that they had presented up on the hill and every committee meeting that they attended and every time they spoke. And when that was told to me, I was very happy when I knew in my mind when this bill passed by one vote on the floor, 38 to 37, that it was the PTA that stepped up, it was a PTA leader that said, "You know what, we can do a referendum on this." For two weeks we met behind closed doors with the Education Commission and the coalition was formed, Utahns for Schools and -- for Public Schools. And when that was formed, we had to do it behind closed doors because we didn't want anyone to know this referendum was coming because we had a feeling that maybe something would put a stop to it. But when we did the referendum, we were told -- we filed and we had 40 days to get 92,000 signatures, forty days, and to get so many counties verified. We did that. We not only got -- and we did it. We were offered over $400,000 to have somebody do that for us and we says, "No way." We know we're speaking for the people and we got volunteers to do this. And it was a volunteer effort. And in those 40 days we not only got 128 verified signatures, we actually got almost 150,000 signatures. Thank you. Not only that, we also got 25 of the 27 counties verified. The only two that didn't was San Juan and Washington County. We know the reason why Washington County really didn't come on board, we only lacked a thousand signatures. But we know it was because of the question about House Bill 174.

They were saying down here and in the newspapers that it was going to stand on its own, it wasn't an amendment, and it really truly was an amendment to House Bill 148. That's how come it passed by two-thirds vote because the people says, "We got House Bill 148, then we better make it better." In it it adds that at least the teachers would get a background check. So from there we asked the -- we asked the legislature to do two special sessions. And they wouldn't call a special session to get this confusion out of the air, so we went to the Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court ruled in our favor that 174 was an amendment. It was like a little branch on a tree. The tree was 148 and it couldn't stand alone. And so that's where we begin.

Four: Accountability and Finances

PRESIDENT SNOW: The Utah Voucher Law we feel is fundamentally flawed. The flawed voucher law lacks accountability and contains too many loopholes and unanswered questions. Private schools are not required to be accredited like public schools. Unaccountable private voucher schools may hire teachers without college degrees or a state license. Private schools don't have to meet the same course work or attendance standards that public schools meet. Like I say, they can only meet one day a week if they wanted to where we have to meet so many days out of the year. Utahns need to invest in public schools. Ninety-six percent of Utah's children are now attending public schools. Utah has the most overcrowded classrooms in the country. Utah ranks last in the nation in spending per student. Instead of diverting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars for vouchers, Utahns should increase our investment in public schools. Thank you.

And vouchers will not help the majority of Utah families. More than half of Utah counties have no private schools at all, but I will let you know that we are being looked at as a state. They are looking at us all around. And we know property is being bought up from investors to build private schools in our state. We know that for a fact. Due to limited funding, less than one percent of eligible public school students will be able to receive voucher scholarships in 2008. Even with an average $2,000 voucher, many Utah family won't be able to afford expenses, private school's tuition, expensive private school tuition, which averages $8,000. We got that average from the Utah State University who found -- made that assumption for us. And it's not an assumption. It's a fact that that's the average across the state. And for a family with four children, the additional $24,000 in tuition puts private school completely out of their reach. And for a child to attend a private school, that parent is going to have to drive that child to school every day, make sure that child has a lunch, because there will be no lunches available for them at that school. There also, parents will sign away their rights to IDEA, and that is for the special needs student. Any special needs money, they are going to sign that right away. And if there is a special needs student in a school, if they need special needs, then the parents will probably have to pay that difference. It is not for all children, and it's definitely not for the children that can't attend private schools because they just can't afford to. It sounds good, it sounds wonderful, but, you know, our forefathers had a vision. And their vision was that everybody receives an education.

And that's what public school provides, that there's not one child turned away no matter race, no matter mental ability, they are not turned away from our schools. Every child has a right for an education. And that's what we stand on as PTA. We want every child to realize their full potential.  PTA is Parent Teacher Association. They keep coming back with parent involvement. We gave over a $380 million check to the governor of hours from parents involved -- parents involved in schools. Our schools are doing a great job. They are high in math, they are high across the nation. They're doing a wonderful job. And we're getting a bad rap from those schools in the east that aren't. Washington, D.C., the District of Columbia, they have the very first voucher bill in District of Columbia because they were inner, there were some bad inner schools, but they didn't have enough money for all of the students to go to the private schools. So they did have a good opportunity to test. And that is a good test that they did there, is that the ones that had to go back to public, the ones that went to private, there was no -- the achievement was just like this. Neither one of them did better than the other. And to me, that's just saying that our public schools are doing a great job.

Five: Parental Involvement , Parental Choice, and National Importance

PRESIDENT SNOW: But another concern to me, and you just read it in the paper not too long ago, you know, we have a lot of things that happen in our schools with our teachers. And our teachers, if they do not have a teaching degree, like in private schools they don't have to have, they do not suffer the consequences that our teachers will suffer if they do something wrong. And as parents we need to know that we have got something to stand on. Now, I'm not saying -- we don't have that many teachers out there that are doing anything that they shouldn't, but we at least know that if they are, we can get them fired and get them out of the system. In a private school situation, you have no say, you will not be able to do that. But our teachers in Utah, the reason we are so high and our math scores are so good, is because we do have good public schools, we do have good teachers, and we do have good parent involvement. And for a parent to go to a private school, they have to also sign that they're going to put so many hours into that private school. Excuse me. Why not just put those hours into your public school, you know.

Parents, we are the first teachers for our children, and the second teacher is the teacher in the school. And if you don't take the time to get to know that teacher that's going to spend six hours a day for how many days, I mean, we've got to step up to the plate. I think parents as a whole we believe in the system, but sometimes they're so busy, they're working two jobs just to support their family, but we just need to have parents involved. And I know Steve would agree with me, not just in the school but in their lives. And I think if a parent is involved in the child's life, then they will succeed. But why divert monies from public schools into another school system? We've already got choices. We've got our public school, we've got charter schools. And I don't know how many of you out there know that charter schools are public schools. At least they are accountable. Those public monies that are going there, they're accountable for what happens. In these private schools, they -- all they have to do is say, "We're not going to meet in a residence. We've got 41 schools and we are solvent." They do not even have to give a financial report for five years. How many businesses go in and out of business in three years? So who's going to follow that money? How are we going to administer it? Who's going to follow that child? And that's where my heart really comes into it, is that child. That child might get into -- we've got some great private schools across the state, but what my concern are those that are out there ready to come in wanting to open and then leave. And don't think that won't happen because there has been fraud all across the United States with private schools. Milwaukee had seven schools fraud this year that were private schools that were voucher schools.

I don't know if you realize, this voucher bill is the only state voucher bill ever passed, the only state. Everything else that you see and you hear about is the cities, like Milwaukee is a city, it's not a state. Florida tried to pass one, a state-wide one, it was defeated. California tried to pass one, it was defeated. We are getting so many people saying, "How come you're taking union money to fight this?" My word, we have to. Because we've got so much money coming from the outside in trying to get the vouchers, why do they want Utah to be the ones to pass? Because they know if Utah will pass it, it's going to go clear across the United States. And then what will happen to our public school system? We're looking at the thing. They say, "Yes, we're not going to be held accountable for the first five years." Okay. Let's talk about 13 years when it's going to cost us $429 million when all of the kids that are in private schools now are able to also get vouchers. What's going to happen now? Stop? Ouch. Okay. I'll wait for the questions. Thank you.

Six: History of Voucher Legislation from Legislator's Perspective

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Well done. Carmen and I agree on one overriding fact that I think we shouldn't lose sight of and that's the educational opportunities are great for our children in Utah. That's something to celebrate. If you look at the huge burden our public schools face, to educate every single child who walks through the door, and if you look at the scant resources they have to do that with, I believe you would stand in awe of the job that public schools do. Our public schools provide that education for 96 -- 97 percent of our children, and they do an excellent job. The system, though, is huge. I hope everyone would acknowledge that.

In any big system, no matter how good it is, and again, I want to emphasize our system is excellent, some things are going to fall through the cracks.  When we're talking about things falling through the cracks in education, those things happen to be children. And where we can, it's our responsibility to do whatever we can to see that each child has an opportunity for success. I hope I adequately lay out for you tonight how I believe vouchers helps accomplish that mission. In our Washington County schools, most children are happy, they are succeeding, but a few aren't.

They're hopelessly behind or desperately ahead. Perhaps they're tragically sad, because they're being bullied on the playgrounds. Or, maybe they have other things going on in their lives that cause them to bully other children or disrupt a classroom. For whatever reason, and the reasons are many, a few children don't thrive in public education. So what about those children?  Now, it surely is no indictment of public education to acknowledge that a few children struggle in that setting. Rather, it is an acknowledgment that each child is different and uniquely challenging and capable. That simple recognition is an invitation to seek unique ways to help each child, and, in some cases, a call to seek something different to help those few children who are falling through the cracks in the public education system.

A few years ago, to help families that saw something different, charter schools were proposed. The UEA and PTA vehemently opposed them, arguing that they would financially ruin traditional public schools, they would take away the best and brightest, they would divide our society. That didn't happen. Instead, they helped children. One local father, and I have to say a rather macho fellow, he teared up as he told me how a charter school saved his daughter who had always been left behind in school. Now, that's his words, that it saved his daughter, she experienced success, she discovered self-confidence and the happiness that comes with that. Clearly, charter schools are succeeding. And, do you know what? Traditional public schools are still succeeding also. The two complement each other. They both are part of the educational fabric of our state. A few years ago, a voucher was proposed to help special needs students afford private school, if their parents thought that was best for them. The UEA and the PTA vehemently opposed the Carson Smith Special Needs Scholarship, arguing that it would financially ruin public schools, that capacity did not exist in special needs schools for more students, and that surely private schools would not take special needs students.  That didn't happen.

In response to the special needs voucher, two new special needs schools have opened, and a total of 40 private schools proudly claim voucher recipients with special needs, 40. And, do you know what? Public schools are still succeeding also. The special needs voucher complements the activities of our great public schools. They help form a part of the educational fabric of our state.  Now, the legislature and the governor propose to help families afford private school, if they think that best meets the education needs of their children. The UEA and PTA vehemently oppose vouchers, arguing that they will financially ruin public education, that all good students will leave the system, the Taliban schools will emerge, and now this one will make you fall over laughing, if you're familiar with my business skills, that I want to start a private school. Do you know what? That's all overblown. Vouchers will simply improve education in Utah by helping families that determine their child's needs are best met in a private setting. For those children who are helplessly behind or desperately ahead or tragically sad or uncontrollably mad, for the few children who are falling between the cracks, vouchers signify hope and opportunity. And they do so in a responsible way that will not harm public education, the backbone of Utah's educational system. The governor and the legislature would not allow that to happen.

Seven: Vouchers and the Numbers

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: I, of course, am aware of many rumors surround vouchers. I'm not going to spend your time chasing those rumors, because there are far too many and because I believe they're being spread to distract voters from the merits of the proposal, which merits are sound. So, what are the merits of the voucher bill? Depending on the income of the family, a student is eligible for a voucher of $500 up to $3,000. The average voucher, as Carmen said, will be $2,000. That is significantly less than the amount that would have been spent on the student in a public school. Public school students receive $7,500 in assistance. In 2005, I passed a math initiative that is benefiting the children of Washington County. Those children would be able to tell you that 7,500 minus 2,000 equals 5,500. That is the amount of money that is saved each year for each student who uses the voucher and switches to private school. We spent $2,000 in order to save 5,500, for each student who switches from public to private school. It's not accurate to say that vouchers are costing the system. That's like saying that buying hot dogs instead of steak is depleting the family budget by the cost of the hot dogs. It's not true. Rather, the family budget is being increased by the amount of the savings. Agree with me or disagree with me, I hope my friends in Washington County at least agree that I am candid, at times troubling so. So, let's dig a little deeper into those numbers, to give you the data you're really after. Will vouchers cost money or save money? You've heard huge numbers on both sides of the ledger. You just heard a huge number. The answer depends on how many students take the incentives provided by vouchers and switch from public schools to private schools. I have to admit, it seems that both sides seem more interested in a hyperbole than math and straight answers at times. And, in a democratic system, that's troubling. So, here's the simple answer, which I cleared yesterday with the Legislative Physical Analyst. The program pays for itself when one percent of our school age population switches from public to private schools.

Below that, there is cost. Above that, there is savings. Like it or not, that is the simple financial fact. I'd point out on the cost side that none of the money for vouchers comes from the education fund. It's all general fund money. So, I believe the argument can be fairly made that, in the worst case scenario, if not a single student switches, vouchers will not cost public education. It's all additional money that could have been spent on roads, Medicaid or anything else. I would also argue that the switch rate likely would be over one percent. And I would guess substantially over, which means significant savings for public education. But, I intentionally use the word "guess." We don't know. Let's be candid about this. I believe the number will be high, the number of switchers, because of the significant numbers of Utahns who have availed themselves of other choice options that have been made available, such as charter schools, the Carson Smith Special Needs Scholarships and online offerings. Because vouchers have a high probability of saving our public education system significant amounts of money and because in offering choices to families it will definitely help some individuals. And I surely don't see that it will hurt the system. I believe this is an experiment worth pursuing. But at the end of the day, that is a choice that each of us is invited to make. Please give it an honest look and a fair chance.

Eight: Accountability

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Okay, set aside finances for a second. What about accountability? Some say, "There is no accountability for private schools receiving voucher students." How many of you have heard that? Let me see your hands? Keep your hands up if you've heard there is no accountability. I want to see how much information has been distributed along with that allegation. Keep your hands up, don't cheat. Okay, keep your hand up if you weren't aware that voucher-eligible students have to annually assess the achievement of each student by administering a norm-reference test comparing that student's performance to other students on the national basis. Keep your hand up, if you weren't aware that the schools have to report the test results to the student's parents. Keep your hand up, if you weren't aware that the schools have to provide such test results to anyone who asks, whether it's you, a newspaper or voucher aide, whoever would be eager to attack any real or imaginary blip a voucher-eligible school might have. Keep your hand up, if you weren't aware that voucher-eligible schools have to disclose to parents the teaching credentials of their teachers. Keep your hand up, if you weren't aware that voucher-eligible schools have to disclose their accreditation status to anyone who asks. Keep your hand up, if you weren't aware that voucher-eligible schools have to undergo an annual audit. Well, now you know.

Voucher-eligible schools have to norm-test their students, report the results to the student's parents, report to prospective students and parents, and everyone else, how all students at the school compare to students nationally, disclose teacher credentials and school accreditation status to parents, and undergo an annual audit. That's accountability. To argue otherwise, is to argue that parents evaluating those schools are stupid. They're not. They know how to weigh information and make a choice. You, too, know how to make choices. Come through the red or come both sides and dig in for yourselves. I believe you'll come to the conclusion that vouchers are great for individuals who need something different and they are good for education in Utah. Whatever you conclude, the sun will still come up. I appreciate you engaging in the process, stay engaged.

Together we'll figure out the answers to the challenges we face in providing world class education to our children. Thank you.

Nine: President Snow's Rebuttal

PRESIDENT SNOW: Are we ready? Okay. How many of you received this in the mail or in the newspaper? Ah, raise your hands. Everybody in the county should have received one of these. And if you would just take this and read this portional analysis, it would -- you would know how to vote. It would tell you exactly what he's talking about, the finance piece, that we were not making up numbers. This is a portional analyst -- legislature analyst that has done this. And you really need to read this.  And when it comes to people that can take money, you know, he talked about the breakout. If you were making, just on this it says $150,000 a year, you could receive, if you had two children, $500. If you had eight children, you could receive a thousand dollar voucher. So this voucher is for -- as we say, it is for everyone. I really have read the papers and the magazines.

I bought Dixie. How many have you read this, Today Dixie? Great, great articles in that. The Spectrum has done some really good articles and discussion. I think that as voters you need to look at them, read them, analyze them, and you can possibly see for yourself how you should vote on this issue. I don't want to see children slip through the cracks. I don't want to see children bullied. You know, it doesn't matter what environment you're in, it will happen, even in private school or a public school. I really feel like our children are our future. And it is a guessing game right now. And like I was saying about if we had the $429 million that it will cost us, we could pay the salary for 7,322 teachers, 23,765 peril educators. One cost of $71 million dollars in the final year of implementation of every school in Utah could obtain well over one new teacher to help reduce class size. This bill will not reduce class sizes. And that's something that we really need to state. Our class sizes are decided on how many people are in the school. If we lose children, we'll probably lose teachers. Our classes will not be any smaller. And Dave asked me at the chamber when we were talking, he says, "What do you want to do?" "We come before you as educators and parents and you can't seem to be able to solve the problem." "It's going to happen and" -- No, no, no. I'm sure glad we're going to have questions and answers. Sorry.

Ten: Rep. Urquhart's Rebuttal

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: I surely -- I don't think that I said Carmen was making up numbers. If I implied that, then I apologize. What I meant to say is that there are big numbers being thrown out, but the math is very simple that I laid out. And so the key is the switch rate, how many students will take this incentive and switch. And so the legislative physical analyst used the switch rate of four-tenths of one percent. And I believe that it will be higher than that. You know, I just want to point out that the whole goal here is to help students.

The whole goal is to help the education system in this state. And I think that this is a wonderful plan for helping out a few students who need it. And I think that a lot of the arguments against this, they, when they're examined today, they don't stand out. So I'd ask everyone to take a deep breath, do read what's provided in the voter pamphlet. I think that it's well presented on both sides. And, again, I think that if you do that, you will conclude that this is a worthy experiment and this could yield tremendous benefits for Utah families.

Thanks.

Eleven: Q&A -- Separation of Church and State

PRESIDENT SNOW: Now we're going to hear from you. 

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MS. KOFFORD: Our moderator this evening is Ed Rogers. He'll ask the questions and then we'll take turns as to who answers. Steve will be first one time, Carmen will be first one time, then they'll go back and forth. Okay? 

PRESIDENT SNOW: Okay. 

MODERATOR: Thank you for your questions. It's been great to see the response come in tonight. There are a number of yes, no questions, and let me start with those. And simple answers would be fine. And then I'll try to get one that will require a response that will alternate back and forth the responses. And this is my first opportunity to read these questions, so we'll get through them. Since a large amount of private schools have a religious affiliation, wouldn't it be a violation of separation of church and state to provide government assistance to attend such a school?

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Absolutely not. BYU students receive Pell grants. Same deal. 

PRESIDENT SNOW: A Pell grant is completely different than the voucher. A Pell grant goes to only students that are less able, low-income students. And they only go -- a Pell grant only goes to an accredited university. It doesn't go to a private university. It goes to an accredited university. So I think it's really hard to compare this with a Pell grant because it is completely opposite of a Pell grant.

MODERATOR: Okay. Thank you. Carmen, this one will go to you first. Can a private school choose who attends? 

PRESIDENT SNOW: Yes. 

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Yes. I mean, there are anti-discrimination provisions. And like I pointed out, although people said it wouldn't happen, 40 schools have accepted special needs students. They see students broadly across the spectrum.

MR. MODERATOR: Steve, to you. The Oreo cookie commercial is evidently flawed. How is the voucher law going to help public schools? Do you know public school financing at the school district level?

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: You know, take a good look at me. I am an authority on Oreo cookies. You know, it's not flawed. I gave you the switch rate. We save $5,500 per every switcher. So you get above one percent, and that's raw savings.

PRESIDENT SNOW: Well, something is definitely wrong with it because Nabisco told them to pull the ad. But, you know, we're saying it is really deceiving when you see that and you see all these stacks of Oreo cookies. But if you look at the $7,500, every child is not the same, every child does not cost $7,500 to educate. Some children cost 50,000, $25,000 to educate. You need to remember that. All children aren't the same as an Oreo cookie. They're all different.

Twelve: Q&A  Parental Choice, Regulating Private Schools, Amending Laws and Finances Revisited

MODERATOR: Carmen, to you. According to Utah State Board of Education statistics, 40 percent of the low-income children are currently failing and dropping out of public schools prior to graduation. If the current voucher law is rescinded, how will parents be able to make alternative choices for their children's education when money is an inhibiting issue and tax-funded government schools are their only choice?

PRESIDENT SNOW: Well, you know, we have other schools, in our high schools, in our middle schools and in our elementaries. We also have our special schools. We've got Mill Creek Elementary (sic). And those are for failing students to go to. And that school is doing a fabulous job. Fabulous is one of my fabulous words that I love. They are doing a fabulous job down here in southern Utah. And that is who they're taking. They're taking those failing students. And those students are succeeding and, you know -- that's all.

MODERATOR: Thank you.

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Well, what's the reality here? Let's say the public schools, any shape or form, flat out aren't working for a child. If that child comes from a wealthy family, he has another option, he can go to a private school. If he doesn't come from a wealthy family, tough.

MODERATOR: Okay. Steve. Do the testing results of voucher students need to be reported to the State Department of Education?

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: They need to be reported to anyone who asks, so the answer is yes.

PRESIDENT SNOW: And the question that really should be asked on this, "Are they tested on reading, arithmetic, history?" They're actually tested on whatever that private school wants to test them on.

MODERATOR: Carmen, to you. How can we enforce regulatory standards in private schools?

PRESIDENT SNOW: How can we enforce it? Well, I guess have it passed by the legislature, because I understand if this bill passes, there's going to be a lot of amendments to it to make it better. And if that happens, then that's one thing that they would have to do for a private school, is to make sure they have that in there. Does that answer that question?

MODERATOR: I believe so. Steve.

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Yeah. I went through this in my main thing. There are several accountability factors that private schools need to answer to.

MODERATOR: Okay. The next question I guess it goes to you first, Steve. Is it true the voucher law cannot be revisited or altered if it passes?

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: No, absolutely not. Let me take a moment on that, just on a completely different subject. Any law that is passed, whether it's by the legislature, by initiative, it's on the books, and so any and every law can be amended at any time. That's typically the work we do up there, is we take laws that are on the books and amend them a little to match with the reality of the world they're put up against.

PRESIDENT SNOW: And that's what's kind of scary, too, because the reality is there's not going to be enough money if as many as they say are going to pull out and do the voucher system. So the question on the floor is: "Is that one of the things that they will amend, that they will go for more money and ask for more money, and then we will be held accountable, the public schools will be held accountable?" That's a good question. And I think they can be changed. And that's how come we don't want this voucher bill to get their foot in the door because we can see all kinds of changes that could be made to this bill.

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Ed, can we have one optional follow-up?

PRESIDENT SNOW: And then another?

MODERATOR: On the same question?

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Yes.

MODERATOR: Now you're asking me the questions.

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: Yeah. I just say, you know, Carmen said that if a whole bunch of students switch, then it's going to be a problem. Which way is it? I mean, if a whole bunch of students switch, the math works out over one percent is raw savings. If a whole bunch switch, if that's what we're, quote, unquote, worried about, then we make a major mind preservation.

PRESIDENT SNOW: Can we have raw savings, but in that raw savings what we're saving, we're also costing more money. So I've got some charts up here you're more than welcome to look at. But right here it says the first five years across here, this is a good, low savings. But notice the red line. That's what it's costing us. As we're saving this, it's still costing us this. We need to remember this.

Thirteen: Q&A  Higher Education Comparisons and Overcrowded Classrooms

MODERATOR: Carmen, to you. This is a long question again. State run colleges in Utah are partially subsidized by government dollars. Scholarships are available to all students who apply and meet specific criteria.

Additionally, low-income students can apply for grants to make higher education studies available to them. Otherwise, students pay tuition and pursue their selected course. To what extent are our current voucher laws for Utah children similar or dissimilar to scholarships and grants for higher education?

PRESIDENT SNOW: Well, as we were talking about the Pell grant just a minute ago, that kind of answers that. But, also, you know, it says in the voucher bill, it calls it a scholarship. Now, to me, a scholarship is something that you earn, isn't it? It's not something that's just given. And you apply for it and you've had to do -- I know when I was going to school I applied for a scholarship from the Elks. I had to write an essay, I had to do a book, I had to do all kinds of things. And guess what, I didn't get the scholarship. And, yes, I was disappointed, but that's a scholarship. This is a voucher. And, you know, having it called a scholarship right in the House Bill 148 is a little deceiving because a scholarship and a voucher really are two different things. To me a scholarship is something that you've applied for, you've earned through your achievement, it's not just handed to you.

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: My first session up in the legislature, the president of UVSC caught my attention. He said that half of his entering freshman have to take remedial math, a third have to take remedial English. He says that he gets students throughout the country. Those are the Utah students he's talking about. So, you know, again, we do a great job, but, you know, ask any college president, ask President Caldwell, these are facts. So it suggests we can do better. And that's what we continually try to do up at the legislature is do a little better. This isn't an attack, it's just an attempt to do a little better.

MODERATOR: Steve. What controls will be imposed on private school and voucher use that will ensure that our dollars are not used to pay for special interest propaganda and that Utah's children receive quality instruction and appropriate curriculum?

REPRESENTATIVE URQUHART: I spent probably four or five minutes of my speech on that, so I would encourage you to look at the bill, that's lines 133 through 199.

PRESIDENT SNOW: And you can go online because they did not print the bill. They had the choice to put the bill, which was only eight short pages in this for you to read, but they do have it online for you to go online to find. I have the bill. I have been online and I cannot pull the bill up that is on this piece of paper. And I hope somebody else will be able to. Because you really need to read House Bill 148 and it will answer a lot of the questions that are being asked up here. And I've got to go back. What was the -- read that one more time because I had an answer?

MODERATOR: What controls will be imposed on private and voucher use that will ensure that our tax dollars are not used to pay for special interest propaganda and that Utah's children receive quality instruction and appropriate curriculum?

PRESIDENT SNOW: Well, from what I read on the bill, there is nothing there. I feel, like I've said before, and I'll say it again, Warren Jeffs could open a school and he could teach your child. He could be a voucher school and he could be eligible for it and he could teach your child to have all women be obedient to your husbands. I know some of you men would probably like that, but is that what we want our children to be taught?

I really think that the way the bill is written that that is the type of some of the schools that can open up to our children. And, like I said before, there are some really good private schools. We are not here to fight private schools. We&